Re: Beyond Design (...) from Quartz/Officium in Hugi12

Written by Psychic Symphony

 > I  wonder  if  anyone  of you ever went  to  see  one  of those computer art
 > installations...

Not me!

 > Talking  avatars,  sounds controlled  by  visitor's movements, "intelligent"
 > robots,  virtual  flights...  is technology breaking  into  art  or art into
 > technology?

Can't say that I have... Sounds interesting... Art and technology... Tough subject!

 > Well,  in  fact that scene is not  much different from the demoscene: things
 > that  once were avantgarde have become routine (and I'd say, pretty boring),
 > and  nothing new helped filling the space. Moreover one could bring demos to
 > one of those "interactive" happenings.

Hey! Wait a minute... You think things that what was avantgarde now is routine coz you don't give them a proper analysis! It's like small gadgets like can-openers, pens and... disks! You are so used to using them as a standard day-to-day basis that you forget about trying to understand how they we're built and how hard it was to invent them... It's called evolution! And it has consequences...

 > Hardly  the last demos made us say "Hey,  what's this?" or "How the hell can
 > they do this?!?", even those really good.

You're right! And even then, after a couple of reviews you end up having an idea on how it was done. That's why I think discovering the demoscene was a lot more fun than belonging to the demoscene...

 > It  looks  like we - as  demo-watchers  - can't physiologically say anything
 > more than "How good!". Is this a problem with us or with the demos? Just the
 > fact  that  now we all know at least  basically how a 3D engine works throws
 > away most part of the mystery.

I guess you're right...

 > But hey, good art should bring permanent mistery and surprise!

Oh yeah?

 > This is why I say a good design is not enough if we really want the scene to
 > be  innovative.  (Won't say that nowadays even  good  code, once a must, has
 > become optional: we all know the story.)

Not true! Example is Pulse's asm'98 demo! Mostly just art pics one after another. Hardly much design and not much code involved although it exists! And the demo came out badly placed!

Don't get me wrong... Visualize is a very good gfxer and the rest of the Pulse guys did their job very well as well... It just lacked something!

 > Digital artists don't seem to be able to find a way to exit this trend; even
 > Brian  Eno kinda resigned. Aren't we demosceners any better? And doesn't our
 > story have something to teach us?
 > So,  instead of coding diskmags and  painting still images without a context
 > (hey,  I'm not against them, I just  don't like people foxilizing on things)
 > why don't we sometimes do sessions to look for new ideas/concepts?

All the time! It's called: 'getting inspiration for a new project!'

 > I  mean, there aren't many typologies of demos around, all somehow fall into
 > the old big categouries:
 >         - 3d world walk/"story"
 >         - unrelated fxs slideshow
 >         - wicked (statix, coma...)
 >         - oniric screensavers (Luminati, Xtal...)
 > Do I have to metion the old story that art is a form of communication?

No! We all know that by now... ;)

 > What new can we bring if we still use the old schemes?

Self-realization of a job well done? Character? Reason to get drunk with the gang? Reason to go to demoparties? Trying to do faster than the other guy? Who knows...

 > Just  look  at  how the 4th group is  not  exactly a category like the other
 > three...  maybe we could do some more progresses in that direction, but this
 > is just what my personal tastes say.

So you like screensavers... What's your point?

 > How to change our mentality?

I had to ask...

 > Explore stupid ideas:
 >         - let the graphicians do a demo without code

It will end up as a slideshow! Better do a homepage then...

 >        - after  a piece of music is ready ask all of the group to write down
 >          what  the  music  should be for (to  avoid  the effect: "u got this
 >          music  and I got this code, let's  see what happens by putting them
 >          together"  because hardly you'll completely  reject the result) (to
 >          avoid  also  the  other effect  "please  write me a trippy/whatever
 >          music")

It's called pleasing musicians! You ask the musician to do what he feels like doing and then you get the pics the gfxer felt like doing, you add some effects you have lying around and you can forget about designing all together!

 >         - convince yourself mentality HAS to be changed

Hey! I'm open to new ideas! Just replying to an article...

 >         - go  in a REAL music hall hearing  Beethoven and in the while think
 >           about all details of the missing visual part
 >         - do it with Stravinskij

That would be interesting! That's a very good idea! :) You should try with other music styles... (not the art-pop, MTV style...), other non-mainstream music!

 >         - code a demo that your mum might like (or if she already likes them
 >           find someone else :)

My mom doesn't even know I code demos! She thinks I play games all the time!

 >         - code  another  one  with the things  you  had  to eliminate at the
 >           previous point

Wow! Now that should be interesting! I shall give it a try! :)

 >         - code a demo Finnish won't ever like :))

What demos DO Finnish like?

 >         - stop thinking about demos

And what else? Want me to stop breathing too?!?

 >         - adopt Statix

I think he's a bit old for that already... DAMN!

 >         - find (and send me) items for this list
 >         - join Officium

Where do I sign up? ;)

 >         - let your girl(/boy)friend decide for the demo

I don't have a girlfriend! They never understand me!

 >         - watch  ooold  movies (at least before  1930) and compare them with
 >           your favourites, then think what to compare winner demos with

Don't have 30's movies around...

 >         - invent a new (non computer-related) form of art

Er... They all have already been invented!

 >         - get Brian Eno's oblique strategies
 >         - forget  all  silly old discussions like  amiga  vs pc, dos vs win,
 >           soft vs 3dfx, me vs you...

What's an amiga? ;)

 >         - write a novel about the idea you wanna code

Already tried... Turned out as an RPG script im working on with a friend!

 >         - become a lesbian in a man's body (or viceversa)

Iiiiiii don't think so...

 >         - write in the next Hugi why this article is meaningless


 > Final notes:
 >        (1) I LOVE the great 3d world walks, like Sunflower! Hope to see them
 >            forever!

Some are cool! Some stink! Depends on if the world walks are tediously boring or not!

 >        (2) yes, I am mad
 >        (3) no, you are too
 >        (4) Mad does not apply to the previous
 >                                                            - Quartz/Officium

OK then... That's answered, now for some real reasons on why it is meaningless...

First of all there is the group thing... Either we conduct the show or we let everyone do what they feel like doing and it will end up like something you didn't forsee! If all group members like the output and contributed for it, then your group is with the right members. :) Although most of the time, group members do not agree on lots of things, it's perfectly natural. Also some people like to do things their way, others like to let it develop. It's all a part of getting the demo done! :)

I'm writing too much again... Better stick with the facts...

Most trackers don't like keeping altering their finished tunes so that they will sync with some effect on a demo.

Well... This is a hard problem if you already have finished the demo. You can either leave it unsync or change some things either on the tune or on the layout of the demo...

Almost all graphicians don't like to see their graphics displayed unproperly! Any little scaling, palette change or tweak will upset them!

All this to reach to the point which is: The fact that it is a group's work making a demo and that each person has a different view of it will thereby overule the need for thinking of a subject/theme/new ideas for the upcoming demo! Unless, of course, everyone agrees just to do what it fits within that idea and with that we will lose the fun in doing the demo!

It's no longer a hobby but an obligation to make the demo and so we go from fun to work! And although I flunked economy class I do recall hearing the teacher say (in one of the 3 sessions I attended!) and I quote:

'To work without a refund is exactly the opposite of having fun and getting paid! That means you are in front of double negation. That means you are wasting your time! And waste is a word that we shouldn't have present on an economy class. It symbolizes everything that is bad in our society!'

I wonder why the hell I flunked economy... The final exam went so well... I replied 3 out of 4. Two of them were even correct! Why a 7! And the teacher was passing people with 9... Weird...

Anyway... The reason why the article is meaningless is that groups' opinions always change the final result towards the standard...

Maybe that's why you like Onirics, Quartz... They are normally coded by a one man team! :)

Psychic Symphony

Friend in Evolve
Disturber in The Utopians
Guiding hand in ActiveFuel
Nice guy in Arf!Studios

and Mr. Demojournal on Mondays and Fridays

It's our demoscene... Let's make things happen!